[DOCUMENT] The Governor today withdrew his same-gender marriage appeal, according to court papers, ending his fight against To’eiva marriage in New Jersey.
The announcement comes the day New Jersey begins allowing To’eiva marriages to take place in the State.
According to reports, newly-elected U.S. Senator and former Newark Mayor Cory Booker – who supported To’eiva marriage in New Jersey – himself intends to wed several couples in New Jersey today. [TLS]
These proponents of hashchasa want one thing- to force us to aknowledge their ideology by having the government officialy sanction their behavior and garnt them legitimacy by fully equating it to our marriages. We have to change our strategy and focus on removing the government from the entire issue by deleting ALL references in the law to “marriage”, instead using some neutral term that applies to any two people that want to be treated as a household for benefits and taxation purposes. This will circumvent their equal rights arguments which they are successfully using in the courts. This way the government will have no say in sanctioning their ceremonies and instead leave it up to individuals to decide what they want to call themselves. Then let them call themselves what they want- we aren’t interested. I see this as the only viable way going forward.
I agree. If marraige is a religous issue then the government should not be involved and they should just issue civil unions.
For those who understand politics will tell you thst the election of booker played a big role in this dicision. Had lonegan won it would of created a positive ripple effect
A big (moderated) phony! Let’s support him now for president! He will be great!
Governor Christy’s argued before the NJ Supereme Court that the people of the state should decide the issue. I am unfamiliar with a provision of the state consitution that provides for referedum. On the other hand, the New Jersey Consitution is amended by three/fifths of the legislature and the majority of voters.
The Court made its recent ruling and its Lewis v. Harris ruling in 2006 (civil unions) under the New Jersey Constitution. A NJ constituional admendment defeining marriage between a man and woman would override the Court. The Court would be constrained to rule its own NJ Consitution violates the United States Constituion. This would extemely difficult, because the law of the United States and the Thrid Cirucit still allows States to define marriage as between a man and woman.
(The New Jersey Supreme Court did nullify part of the NJ Contitution in 1964. Under the 1948 New Jersey Constitution, each county had a spearate senator. The New Jersey Supreme Court invalidated representation by geography and ordered a constitutional convention in 1966 to provide for restructuring districts based on population. Jackman v Bodine 43 NJ 453 (1964). However, this was based on the federal one-man, one vote decsion in Reynolds v. Sims, in 1964).
Typical republican bait and switch. Republicans get their base all riled up over social issues and finagle people into voting against their own interests. Its all a bunch of rhetoric so lower and middle class people vote to cut taxes for the rich. Show me a single major social issue where the Republicans have actually prevailed.
From a religious point of view, this is very scary.
I’m going to take the risk of being thrown out of Lakewood for asking such a few simple questions, but I will do it anyway:
1. What is the big deal? In what way does this affect you personally?
2. Do you fee you have the right to decide how others should live their lives?
3. Do you have the right to impose your religious convictions on others? Would you want others to impose their religious convictions on you?
4. If these things bother you so much, why don’t you vote? Especially for Assemblyman and State Senator? These are the people who write the state laws; the governor just signs the laws. By not voting, you are in effect voting for the wrong candidate.
5. Look around the country. This issue is a losing one. The vast majority of Americans see nothing wrong with same-gender marriage, and politicians follow the mood of the country. It is a losing battle.
Is thelakewoodscoop supposed to be biased or unbiased? Because calling it toiave marriage is pretty biased.
#9: Is the Torah biased? The Torah calls it that!
@ idgafos
TLS calls it toiave as a religious way of describing same gender marriage. The reason TLS uses that term is for the same reason many other terms are not used on a family-friendly website.
This does not reflect TLS’ personal biases regarding whether it should be legal or not.
But considering that you dgafos, I understand that this bothers you. Then again, do you gafos? Or do you not gafos? You’re confusing me.
The fact is that toeiva marriage affects all of us. Hashem can not tolerate this aveira and there are repercussions for all of us. We have been influenced, unfortunately, by the prevailing attitude in the world today which tolerates toeiva and we all feel conciously or subconciously that “what’s the big deal? Live and let live?” However, from the torah point of view, as opposed to the politicalyl correct view, this is a big deal. Some people say that the Roman Empire was even destroyed when this way of life became legalized. So it does affect us!
To #12: Do you think the amount of toeiva acts in the world will be affected by whether marriage is legalized or not?
Why get all worked up about this? Why doesn’t shrimp eating get everyone all up in arms? The torah calls that a toeivah as well.
Yes, it’s my understanding that toeiva with a “shtar” is considered even worse.
The difference is in whether something is criminal conduct, non-criminal, or state sanctioned conduct. Teachers could be fired for to’eivah before Lawrence v Texas in states that made it criminal. While it was criminal, teachers and other public employees can instruct children about its immorality. After Lawrence, youth could still be instructed in the virtue of marriage. However, once to’eivah marriage is sanctioned by the state. Any opinion of its immorality becomes discriminatory.
The Torah says that same gender marriage is a toeiva. I get that. But why should it affect you if someone else is doing it? This has no bearing on you at all.
The Torah does not require that you be concerned about the personal preferences of non-Jews.
Either way, answer the other points I put forward, such as, do you want others to impose their religious beliefs on you?
To number 8 “yid” if you are indeed that
1)By the fact that you don’t consider it a big deal, that is illustrative of how big of a deal it is. The fact is that by living in an environment were such behavior is considered “normal:” it influences peoples views. I do not want myself or my children to live in such a world, neither does Hashem.
2) If you are a Yid, then you believe that Hashem does have the right to tell peope hopw to live their lives. Furthermore it is not just that, but it undermines the premise of the cultural importance of marriage. Marriage has also been a respected institution in society, as it is the foundation of a stable society, this makes a mockery of that institution.
3) Firstly, this is not strictly a religious issue, this is a societal issue, see above. Secondly, as a yid, are you equating other religions with Judaism? As a Yid you should know the truth, and your moral compass should be pointing in the proper direction.
4) Why do you assume people don’t vote. The fact is that voting in Lakewood would not impact this.
5) Firstly this is not a losing issue. This is not even a new issue. It is something that pops up occasionally throughout history. Ocassionaly acheiving societal norms. From the time of the Mabul, to the Spartans, to the Greeks, etc.
The fact is it is a very small minority of this world. Less then 4%. Their voice has far exceeded their numbers. The fact is that it is likely near its Nadir of acceptance and in all likelihood, the further they press the issue, the sooner there will be a strong backlash, to relegate this behavior to the whole that it belongs.
In the most liberal state in the country, this was defeated on the ballot. The majority of the country does not approve of this as a form of marriage.
I would say that your being thrown out of Lakewood is a little extreme. But it is obvious that you have been away from Yeshiva for a little too long (and this is not reflective on how long ago you left Yeshiva, but on how far your views are from those of Oilam HaYeshivos)
To number 16
Ki Hishchis Kal Basar Es Darco Al Haarets. When people are corrupt it causes even the animals to be corrupted. It effects everything. I am shocked that a Yid in Lakewood would post such a thing, and not because they should fear being kicked out, but because you have thus far in you life bot only missed the boat, but never even showed up at the dock
TO TLS EDITOR I normally would not write a strong personal attack, but if you are going to print the comments of someone who is so far from the Hashkafos of the Torah, then it is important to have a strong reaction. Just as allowing Toevah Marriage, can effect everyone, Tummahdik Comments effect people as well.
If you are going to allow the comments, the least you can do is allow the response.
Remember,
one who never ever eats matzah, never wears tefillin and never davens but opposes this is absolutely more jewish and Orthodox than the
other way around.
#19
The Torah DOES require that you be concerned about the personal preferences of non-Jews.
or a national/sociological outlook: the Germans would privately state that foremost their better family life was where their military ability vis a vis the french was sourced.
A Russian defector in the 80’s wrote that the intangible basis for the U.S. superiority in the Cold War was Family life ,which communism trampled.
He further wrote that Russia had been pouring in tens of millions $ to
organizations of perverts,feminists,etc.,all in order to weaken the traditional family socio/structure
TO TLS EDITOR
If you are going to allow the comments, the least you can do is allow the response.
@ Just Wondering
Thank you for taking the time to respond. But I wonder: Did you think about my questions, or did you you just have a knee-jerk reaction??
Nowhere, NOT ONE PLACE, will you ever find a single comment of mine supporting same-gender marriage. The fact that my comments led you to believe that I do support same-gender marriage shows that you have not understood my comment.
I do not support same-gender marriage. However, I also know that I have no right to impose my religious beliefs on others. Do you want others imposing their religious beliefs on you? Say, bris mila? Do you want humanists or atheists telling you how to perform bris mila, or perhaps to ban bris mila and shchita altogether? They really believe that it hurts the child or the animal, just as you really believe that same-gender marriage is an abomination and hurts society.
Again, I need to make this clear because you obviously didn’t understand – I AM AGAINST SAME-GENDER MARRIAGE. But we live in America, with freedom of religion, and freedom FROM religion. Nobody has the right to impose their religious beliefs on anyone else. Everyonoe is free to live and practice their religion as they see fit, as long as it does not infringe on any other’s rights.
Now, you write that even though nobody should be able to impose their religious beliefs on you or me, we have the right to impose our religious beliefs on others because, well, our religion is more true than others. I think that is the epitome of being arrogant and self-centered. Do you not realize that others think that THEIR religion is the true one? Just wait until Islam becomes more mainstream in America, and will try to impose Sharia law, just as they are trying to do in Europe. DO you want them to be able to do that because, well, they are THE TRUE religion (in their minds)? How can you even say that we have the right to do something but not others, because we are MORE right? Everyone else thinks they are MORE rtight than us!
The bottoom line is that you and I have the right to believe that we have the true religion, and you and I have the right to believe that same-gender marriage is wrong. But you and I have no right to impose our beliefs and religion on others. They bellieve otherwise, and it is their right too.
When people respect each other’s rights, they live in peace and harmony. As soon as we demand from others, they will demand from us, and the stronger one will win. I don’t think we are the stronger ones.
You claim that only a very small minority practice same-gender lifestyles, and therefore we are not losing the battle. That wasn’t my point. My point was that most of the country SUPPORTS the rights of those who do practice same-gender lifestyles. So yes, it is a losing battle.
There is a reason more and more states are legalizing it. Because more and more people support the rights of people to live how they choose. Christie knows where the mood of the people of the state of NJ is, and that is why he did what he did.
One last point: A comment mentioned that same-gender rights break up the family unit, and that this is not good for society. I will make two points regarding this.
A – You have the right to want society to be upright, family-oriented, stable, etc. because this will be good for everyone. But once you mix in religion, you have lost the argument. Because in America, you have no right to impose your religious beliefs on others, just as you would not want others to impose their relligious beliefs on you. Stick to discussing how important it is for the emotional state of children to grow up with a loving mother and father, in a stable family setting.
B – I don’t think that the family unit structure in America will get any worse if same-gender marriage is legalized. America’s moral compass has already deteriorated to a point where I fear for the future of the country. Same-gender marriage will not change this, because same-gender relationships are already here and whether they are married or not won’t make a difference. In addition, less than half of Americans are living in a home with a stable marriage altogether. Only 50% of all adults in America are married. 50% of all children born in America are born to a single mother. This is terrible for the future of America. Same-gender marriage is a non-issue when you realize the magnitude of our problems.
And once again, just in case you still didn’t understand a word I just wrote: I am ultra-orthodox. I am against same-gender marriage. I wish same-gender marriage didn’t exist. But I face reality. And I am against imposing your religious beliefs on others, and I hope nobody stops us from doing shchita or bris mila based on what they think is their “true” religion. AND VOTE. THIS IS THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN AFFECT CHANGE.