This may seem like an odd question, but in fact the more and more people I speak to about this topic find it off as well.
Why are men teaching seminary girls? Are there not enough learned women who can teach Ramban, Chumash, Navie, Halachos etc? It’s not like the men are teaching Gemara. They are teaching everything a women can teach – do the women not suffice?
I’ve heard from more than one of my nieces, sister-in-law, and their friends too that they just feel very uncomfortable with having a male teacher.
I’d like to hear from others if this is the way it should be, or is it due to a shortage?
Has anyone heard from Gedolim about this?
Perhaps this letter can bring about some change and an enhanced tznius and comfort level to the classroom.
Thank you.
Yehuda S.
Lakewood.
(TLS welcomes your letters by submitting them to [email protected])
I’m not sure why girls have yo go to semaniry to begin with
Great point! Let’s keep them stupid.
In Europe they had men teachers. I guess then was different because the ladies didn’t learn so they prob couldn’t teach. It’s a new think that ladies say a vort at the shabbos table. These days some wife’s learn more then husband and he does all the cooking olem hafuch
in fiddler on the roof they had men teachers. not in frum Europe shtetels
you dont know what you are talking about in Europe my grandmother had men teaching in fact rabbi Newhouse from Bais Yakov was her teacher
I ask you this:
Why should women be teaching Halacha, Ramban, Hashkafah?!
Women teaching this to girls may end up like the blind leading the blind.
Just as women teach young playgroup boys, as well as English in younger grades, because it’s a women’s place to teach these skills, it is a man’s place to teach those subjects to seminary girls.
Different question, why do girls go to seminary at all? A waste of good money that most parents don’t have and are pressured to spend.
Definitely men teachers play an important roll. Women as great as they are, will be the first to say they need the outlook of a Rov in daily living. True the teacher student relationship is different but not uncomfortable.
Of Course Seminary teachers must be men.How can a lady teach seminary without knowing gemara and rishonim and acharonim.Also years of bais medrash and kollel are needed to know torah to teach Seminary level.
There are many very chashuva men including gedoilai olam that felt quite comfortable teaching girls. Maybe they realize that withholding good teachers from the next generation based on krumkeit actually does a lot more damage.
I’ll tell you why it is valuable, but it’s also dependent on the caliber of the teacher. An experienced respected Rav (not just a male ‘teacher’) has a much more deep, vast and far-reaching beki’us in Torah than most female teachers today. This is just the way it is. When I was in Bais Yaakov of Boro Park seminary (many years ago), I gained tremendously learning from the choshuve teachers and Rabbonim who gave over invaluable hashkafos and true da’as Torah to us girls. Please be aware, these were not young avreichim – we were taught by actual rabbonim – some of whom were public speakers of great renown. The quality of the answers to our questions was on a whole other level. Whereas a knowledgeable experienced Morah can give over a decent answer, it doesn’t compare to the answer of a true talmid chochom. These lessons last a lifetime.
I completely agree with author of letter. There are enough women who can teach that if shouldn’t be necessary for middle aged men to teach 18 yr old girls.
the saintly Mashgiach of Lakewood Rav Nosson Wachtfogel zt”l gave a shiur to Bais Yaakov girls while he was in the Lakewood kollel.
Let’s be real. Not all are on his Madreiga.
I had a wonderful mechanech who wore a blindfold while teaching. It made such an impression on me that my level of frumkeit jumped by leaps and bounds!
Ridiculous! Throughout at least the last 70 years there were many great men who taught in Seminaries and were menahalim of the seminaries and other girl’s schools. Don’t you think they knew at least as much as our dor about what the correct derech should be? And even if some of them were on high madreigos they never stopped other men from being involved in girls’ schools and seminaries.
I’m confused as to what your issue is…are you worried about the men teachers in which case it’s none of your business to get involved in someone else’s frumkiet or are you worried about the girls which unless you have a daughter going to seminary again it’s not your job to be their Mashgiach ( and as a aside if you don’t trust your daughter to sit in class full of girls with a man teacher how are you going to trust her to go to work??) or are you worried about jobs for women that are being given to men? I would love if you can clarify exactly what you are trying to do with this letter
Thank you
Halacha is one subject that I have found personally that requires a man/Rav teacher. When we had the lady teachers they would have to go home and ask their husband who would then go and ask a Rav. Or the woman teacher would pasken herself and usually was always more machmir. Our men Halacha teachers usually knew it well enough to pasken but the few times they did not they had easy access to ask a Rav. I agree with the other commentator, should not be a young man but someone who is a little older and knowledgeable. The problem is that there are not that many men who can handle seminary girls so needs to be someone who knows how to talk to girls and realize it is not the same as teaching boys.
When I went to seminary and had male teachers – some were choshuve well renowned rabbanim and others not so… They all were over 55 at minimum ranging to 90 so there was no tznius issues whatsoever – they generally did not look at the girls when teaching either. I cant say I gained anything more in Hashkafas Hachaim today because of it – we took those classes lightly as we didnt get tested on that material, perhaps today I would gain more from it, but it definitely was a different experience, and it prepares us women for correct interactions with men once we do go out into the world.
Thank you fro bringing up this issue. As a post-seminary girl I can tell you this is an issue. Maybe people are afraid to as the administration about it because they fear an answer of “look, if you don’t like the way we do things, don’t come to our seminary.” But it is an important subject.
To echo some of the other comments!
Why are the girls going to sem in the first place? Wasting the parents hard earned money! What do u learn in sem that helps u 20 years down the road??? Maybe we should teach the girls about real life, marriage….. And maybe even get a job to put away some $$ for when the “real” life kicks in!! I’m not sure where navie, ramban etc…. Will help our daughters in life!
The REAL question, is why the seminary’s are so busy with Ramban’s… they should be busy teaching the girls how to cook,saw, run a yiddisher home!!!
And more importantly, they should give them the understanding of the greatness of emulating the ways of Hashem, by feeding and running the household! Few things in this world can top that!!!!
That is the job of the home, not the school. The school teaches academic subjects and hashkafos too. Everyone expects the schools to do so much. They are only representatives of the parents and the parents should be teaching the children, boys and girls, how to run yiddishe home.
@ Rock
Great point!!!
I went to a large out of town high school where we had men teach Halacha, hashkafa and some other subjects. I don’t think anyone was uncomfortable. Many girls had a rav for life out of it and even those that didn’t are much more comfortable asking shailos as an adult than they would otherwise be. I’m not sure what the issue is… as an aside maybe women should have women rabbis to ask shailos to? After all its uncomfortable to ask a man! Somehow mainstream orthodox doesn’t think so. Once you start adding “chumros ” in the name of frumkeit it doesn’t end.
I had men teachers, both in elementary school , high school and then in seminary. We were all fine with it and the teaches were great.r
My 9th grade high school girl in Lakewood has a male Halacha teacher, and as someone who has spent many years learning Halacha I can tell you that nothing can compare to a male teacher. He is able to give over nuances in Halacha and difficult concepts that only someone who has spent years learning the sugyos can give over. Try to give over the klalim of mileches machsheves, psik reisha, melacha she’ain tzricha legufa etc. without having delved into the rishonim and achronim, and there’s no way to present the concepts accurately and understandably.
He is not old, but I know him personally, and I am extremely comfortable with the gedarim he keeps when teaching the girls. Rav Binyomin Forst shiita tought Halacha in TAG high school even when he was much younger and enriched the halacha understanding of thousands of students.
Most of all, I think it’s important for girls to have a Rov teaching them at some point so they will be familiar with a Rov going through a Halacha shaila and will feel comfortable going to a Rav with shailos when they are older.
@Rock
I agree with your assessment.I Also think the yeshivas should teach husbandry skills to the boys. Let them also leave yeshiva with the skills necessary to create a functioning Jewish home.
Communication, mental resilience, time management, parnasa, too name a few. Having these skills In advance
Would give couples the space to actually bond and create a harmonious environment.
How sad that our daas torah has become Frum websites. When was the last time you asked a shaila to a website?
The status quo will be maintained so stop wasting your breath. Possibly the school’s would consider having appropriate Rabbinim teach via video conference. Is that an option? Why?
My grandmother, which is 97 B”eh had male teachers, are we frummer than previous generations?
Girls have to look and talk to boys when dating, should we ban that too??
Attn Just a Thought:
You ask what Navi and Ramban teach the girls down the road?
Wow, you are missing fundamentals. The Bais yaakov movement was started to teach the girls the lessons and hashkafos from Tanach and Meforshim.
If you are not sure what we learn from these sources, you can enroll in Aish HaTorah. That can be a good starting point for you.
@kudos
Maybe if they would teach the girls what life is really about, and not give the girls great ideas and unrealistic expectations, then they would learn how to have happier marriages!
How about lets ask a Rav??
@Ruth
There’s no such thing as a woman rabbi
Women can’t become rabbis and they can’t pasken shailos
Concerning the whole idea about seminary, I will tell you from my experience. I feel I’m forced to send my daughter to seminary even though it puts a huge financial strain on me. I guess I’m paying $23,000 to teach my daughter emunah and bitachon. What happened to her last four years of high school? I don’t even believe in seminary at all yet I’m forced to send otherwise my daughter will deprived. And they want all the money up front with a specific no money back policy. I have words to say but not a public forum, but chazal say, the Torah is חסה על ממונם של ישראל.
I agree with the writer of this letter. And I certainly hope that men are not mentoring girls on a personal level (I don’t know if this is commonly done)
is this question some type of purim joke! well i have another 1: why do women and girls have to listen to a man laining megilah i think ladies should lein for themselves and on purim when giving mishloiach manos only the ladys should deliver it bec. maybe chas vishalom a man wil deliver it and see a lady and by a kiddush the ladies should make their own kiddush also maybe by bar mitzvah pic.s they should have also a lady photographer for the girls and photo-shop them into the family picture and i think women should never go to rabbi paysach krohns shmuzim for ladys…..
in other words everyone stop being more frum than moshe rabbeinu bec he taught all the yidden torah even the seminary girls and nobody put in a complaint on the lakewood scoop back then… so just chill out and stop making problems that make no sense at all especially since it makes u sound like an Am-haarets even if u learnt from a lady in seminary!! have a freilichin purim boys aaaand girls!!!! hahahahah!!!!!
@the doctor:
That should change. It’ll obviously make us frummer.
We had male teachers in High School (OOT) – many were town rabbanim – and Seminary (In Israel). I thought it was normal and gained a lot from it.
I was talking to a Female halacha teacher and she said it is much harder to give over the information then a rav. The girls ask all sorts of questions and not all are possible for her to answer.
Great point!
But even greater is the great question which rav, godal etc. Would say that parents should put themselves in debt, yes DEBT for a long vacation called seminary!
Don’t just write how much fun you had in Israel that year, remember you will have to send a couple of your Daughters, while marrying of other children! It’s not a joke!!!
My Chavrusa was a rebbe in the Lakewood Seminary for many years. When he retired, the owner of the seminary asked me to take his place & show the girls the Chumash is really Geshmak! It’s not murder! I told him I would take the job if Reb Shmuel Kamenetzky, my Rosh Yeshiva agrees. The owner then said to me, great, I’m penciling you in for next year. I called Reb Shmuel and asked the Shayla. He told me, Chas V’shalom! Men don’t belong in girls schools! And he added, Reb Elya Svei also held like that! I asked him if he felt I personally wasn’t up to the challenge & he told me, anyone who asks me gets the same answer. I told him that I wanted the opportunity to teach & be M’kayeim L’lameid. He gave me a B’rocha that I should find a Shteller in a boys Yeshiva. His Brocha was M’kuyam & I currently teach in 2 Lakewood High Schools! Thank you Hashem.
Later I was told a story about the Manchester Rosh Yehiva that a Lakewood Yungerman called him crying about his father who was Nichshal & left his family for acolored who nurse who cred for him after a surgery. After he was M’chazek the yungerman, he told my Chavrusa who was there, Chazal told us, Ein Apitapus L’arayos! Nisht by mir und Nisht by dir! No one is safe from the Yetzer Harah!
I am in seminary and honestly my favorite teachers are the Rebbeim, I look forward to their classes,they have much more knowledge then the women.
@lakewood high school rebbe:
I had a Rebbe in high school who told us that when he was asked to teach girls he said of course not. When he mentioned it to Reb Yaakov Kaminetsky he told my Rebbe, you think you only have to ask to say yes? You also need to ask before you say no. Reb Yaakov then told him to go ahead and teach in Bais Yaakov.
I get the point that the men are anti it and the women are saying their positive experiences. Let me add on. First of all, I went to seminary and while it may not be worth its ridiculous price, it is a great experience. Rambans and other Meforshim ensure that we have the proper Hashkafos. All boys in Shidduchim want girls with their heads on straight, so if you don’t mind, allow us to continue learning with Meforshim. And now for my experience with male teachers: I had choshuve Rabbonim whom we were able to look up to. There were no relationships going on at all. They came in and taught and left. And while I know women may have possibly been able to teach the same subjects, I think that I gained a tremendous Chashivus LaTorah from just watching our teachers. They were true Talmidei Chachomim whose faces literally shine when teaching Halacha… With the popular idea nowadays of girls marrying learning boys, I think that it is crucial to have the girls truly appreciate the Chashivus HaTorah. And that is something I have gained.
I still haven’t figured it out. Why do girls learn Ramban?? They break their head over it, and forget all of it 2 months after they graduate.
They should learn how to cook, do laundry, and other essential life skills.
I went to high school in lakewood that strictly had men teachers for halacha. I had some friends that went to a different school where there were woman halacha teachers and u can’t compare the difference of my knowledge versus theirs (and especially more in-depth). Certain subjects should only be taught by men.
To anonymous, it’s than not then. How about learning proper english before becoming a baki in kol hatorah Kula
People should stop coming up with new krumkeit.it’s not what yidishkeit is.Rabbonim and Rebbeim taught the past dor and gedolei yisroel endorsed them.
I’m more Frum than anyone who commented so far because I want to know how to take ma’aser from salt. -Eisav
Harav Eliyahu Dessler author of Michtav Meliyahu and Mashgiach of Ponovezh established in the Gateshead Seminary that no Ladies should teach.Only Rebbeim should teach.That policy remains effective in Gateshead until today.There are many reasons for this,Two of the main reasons are:
1. Men are the ones to give over the mesorah annd Leadership.If Ladies will teach in Seminary it can lead chas vesholom to giving shabboss hagodol derashos and being like a kind of Rabbi.
2.Men learn in Bais Medrash and kollel and have a mitzveh of learning torah and that is their role.Women should not be spending their time preparing shiurim and checking up gemoros to teach but should be focused on their homes and communities.
Harav Eliyahu Dessler author of Michtav Meliyahu and Mashgiach of Ponovezh established in the Gateshead Seminary that no Ladies should teach.Only Rebbeim should teach.That policy remains effective in Gateshead until today.There are many reasons for this,Two of the main reasons are:
1. Men are the ones to give over the mesorah annd Leadership.If Ladies will teach in Seminary it can lead chas vesholom to giving shabboss hagodol derashos and being like a kind of Rabbi.
2.Men learn in Bais Medrash and kollel and have a mitzveh of learning torah and that is their role.Women should not be spending their time preparing shiurim and checking up gemoros to teach but should be focused on their homes and communities.
I get that seminar can be a “great experience”, but at what cost? $20K+ so your daughter can have that experience. Even the ones who can afford it, how many hour of work does it take to earn that $20k?
Anything that is necessary for girls to know in life, they should be able to learn in high school.
I think the experience of being away from home is vuluable, in that many girls mature and it helps them developed social skills fir later on in life, but again, at what cost?
Thank you, Mr. S, for posting online on a social forum how much frummer you believe our Mosdos should be. I’m sure all of the mechanchim who spend all of their free time on The Lakewood Scoop will take your lesson to heart.