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Petition Calls for Increased Tznius on Lakewood Buses

[LETTER] A petition hanging in Shuls around Lakewood is calling for increased Tznius on Lakewood buses by providing a Mechitzah between the men and the women.

Some have suggested that the Frum commuter buses offer the first section of the bus for men, and the rear of the bus for women – similar to the setup offered on some Israeli buses – with a Mechitzah separating the two sections on the privately-owned buses. 

The petition quotes Harav Avrom Yosef Rosenblum, of New York, encouraging residents to assist in the matter.

Click on the photo to view the petition.

 

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There are 62 Comments to "Petition Calls for Increased Tznius on Lakewood Buses"

  • old news says:

    the signatures on the letter are from 2008

  • A Woman says:

    I never travel by bus, but, I am all for it. If I had to travel by bus, I would feel more comfortable this way.

  • date says:

    the 18th of av- tof shin eyin gimmel!

    cool!

  • Anonymous says:

    The current setup has been in place for decades and b”h there never has been a lack of tznius. And that’s the opinion of the majority of riders

  • lakewood resident says:

    not legal!

  • BUS PASSENGER says:

    to # 4
    first of all who are you to speak of the opinion of the majority of riders?
    secondly, i travel the bus frequently and so do my children and some aquaintances of mine, we are all in the opinion that the current setup is not the way it should be. there is no reason why it cant be seperated with or without a mechitzah!
    PLEASE DONT FORGET WE ARE THE “AM KODESH”

  • chaim says:

    how about increased tznius throughout lkwd. I cant even go to npgs without seeing multiple women with knees uncovered. Its almost as if covering your knees is a chumra. I am a man and its not really right that i am faced with so many nisyonos on a daily basis. I dont go to do big local stores to avoid pritzus but where else can i shop. Women please just dress tznius for us men.

  • BUS PASSENGER says:

    TO # 5
    ITS NOT LEGAL FOR THE COMPANY TO PUT IT UP, BUT PASSENGERS ARE ALOUD TO.

  • Dov says:

    To #7

    Maybe you should try thinking in learning, then you might not notice all the uncovered knees!

  • Dov says:

    I’d like to see the makor of there being a ‘chiyuv l’dina’ for mechitzas on a bus. At most you can tell me that men and women shouldn’t sit right next to each other, and even that would be so that they don’t come into actual contact. Even if it is an admirable chumra, let’s not confuse chumros and halacha.

  • Anonymous says:

    To Chaim:
    If you’re makpid on tznius what are you doing online?
    Another point I would suggest is that women get the front & men the back because the women generally have the children to shlep.

  • Lakewood Tznius Level says:

    Has gone down terribly in recent years due to young & modern couples moving in. Oh L’Yom Hadin Oh L’Yom HaTochaha !

    A true story was printed a few years ago about a girl from Brooklyn who did not keep the Tznius level of her Kehila, She Nebach died in a car crash. She came in a dream to 2 classmates one night and told them that every day her legs are burned in fire because she was lax in Tznius.
    The Classmates told this happening over and authenticated it. It was printed with a phone number if someone wants to check it out.

  • hey #12 says:

    #12, a few girls telling a story and getting it printed on a flyer does not authenticate anything. You obviously do not know what the word authenticate even means. And if you are implying that anyone who does not cover their legs will have their legs burned after they die, you clearly have no clue about how g-d operates and what awaits in the next world. Please keep your voodoo superstition off this website

  • BUS PASSENGER says:

    Please lets not get of the topic.
    Dov- no one is saying that it is a “chiyuv ledina” , its just an opportunity that we have to do something good. What I don’t understand is why in the world does someone mind this set up??? Why do people have to be against something like this? Do you bedavka must sit near someone from the other gender?

  • yitz g says:

    One thing is for sure- having a mechitaza down the middle which just makes the whole place claustrophobic (besides that the men and women keep bumping into each other) is ludicrous. It should be front and back with a small simple mechitza.

  • A Woman says:

    I too am appalled by the myriads of women in Lakewood who blatantly walk around with their knees uncovered or barely covered and some without stockings. There is absolutely no heter for this.

  • Mr Jiggs says:

    Control your eyes and all will be fine. What’s next, separate grocery stores for men/ladies? (moderated)

  • good idea says:

    lets just make sure women don’t have to pass all the men to get their seats since that will not help. Put the women in front with a mechitza across the width of the bus.

  • It's been done and it failed says:

    Have you ever been on the Monsey-Brooklyn bus, where they do have a mechitzah? I have many times. The breach in tznius on that bus is far greater than the one on the Lakewood bus. When I try to walk down the aisle to get off or on, and I find myself nearly hugging men through a thin curtain because both of us are trying to walk down the aisle and neither of us can SEE the other, that is highly inappropriate. If I wait for the man to pass, the next man comes and bumps into me. How is that more ideal than waiting patiently in line for the others to pass so I don’t have to touch a man?
    If you want to divide the bus with women in the back, men in the front, that’s fine with me. Or vice versa. But a mechitzah down the middle is simply ridiculous and it will not help anyone’s ruchnius level to touch members of the opposite gender through a curtain.

  • A Woman says:

    If women sit in front the men will have to pass by them to get to the back and vice-versa. What about having a front door and a back door on the buses?

    To all those who say men shouldn’t be looking at women – 1It’s fine to say that men should guard their eyes, but, it is still not allowed to dress in an unsniusdik manner. A woman is not allowed to cause a man to sin inadvertently.

  • Lakewood resident says:

    I travelled on the bus for 5 years.
    #1 if woman and girls were to conduct themselves in a fashion woman and girls did 30 years ago yes I agree there would be no reason for mechitzas as our parents always had mixed seating at events.
    BUT unfortantly lets face the reality many [most] girls don’t have the sensitivity to sit like a tzenua on the bus which means not calling for attention to ones self, by yapping on the phone or/and speaking loud that makes the whole thing a different story.

  • anonymous says:

    If it’s done front to back – they should do women in front for a few reasons mentioned and it also won’t cause chillul Hashem to avoid people thinking you are degrading women.

  • Wait for moshiach! says:

    To Dov! Chaz”l say achori ari vlo achori isha! If there is 2 ways to reach ur destination one way a women walks and the other a lion walks that u should rather take the way that the lions walks! They didn’t say choose any way and just think about learning!

    It also says “lifny evir lo setein michshol” a women who causes a men to sin will also get punished and won’t be able to say the men shouldn’t have looked etc.

  • I don't know says:

    Having gone on the Monsey bus and seeing the banging into the other side of the Mechitzo by mistake I really don’t think a curtain is a good idea.Front and back seating arrangements are better if needed.

  • mosh says:

    I have special cloth you can put over your eyes so you don’t have to see anything. Its called the Kosher Tznius Cloth sold at all judaica stores for only $79.99

  • emgirl says:

    As much as tznius is a problem (and it is a big one), it is not a man’s position to tell woman how they should (or shouldn’t) dress. Men have no clue what a nissayon it is for women to dress b’tznius. (moderated)

  • Anonymous says:

    I travel on the bus rarely, but I recently had to go on the bus a few times. I was horrified to find the claustrophobic shmatte up the middle of the bus a couple of times. There is separate seating already. I feel that’s enough. I agree wholeheartedly with #19. When the shmatte was up, I couldn’t see the men’s side and everyone bumped into each other. When the shmatte was not up, everyone waited patiently until the other person went by. MUCH MORE TZNIYUSDIG. Why does Lakewood always feel they have to do things more chassidish? This was once a litvish and tzniusdig town. Let’s keep it that way.

  • jbw says:

    Forget the busses, what about tznius throughout lakewood, just walking down the street or going into any store is a problem.

    For all those saying, “just don’t look”… Try this: for the next week don’t look at men’s shoes at all. Then, count how many you ‘just happen to notice because it was right there in front of you. After that we can talk about how women can walk around with uncovered knees and and say; (don’t look’.

  • Dov says:

    #16

    Same story- community standard may be to wear stockings/tights, which perhaps creates a quasi-chiyuv. On the other hand there are many shittos that don’t require it, so if someone is from another community etc. doesn’t wear, it’s not fair to look down on them and consider them a ‘baal aveirah’.

  • alte Lakewooder says:

    i used to be on the bus. The women couldn’t wait for the mechitza to come down after davening because it made it hot for them & also it was claustrophobic. #19 has it right. The bumping points are good. The mechitza makes more problems than it solves. By the way, when is the last time you were at a chupa that had a mechitza ? Just because men & women are in attendance doesn’t mean you have to have a mechitza.

  • ari says:

    The best possible solution would be 2 buses. No bumping. No looking. No thinking. They could hike the price up a bit, since a buck or two wont stop commuters. There would also be a lot more room. The shmattas would be gone and kedusha would return.

    Although, I do find myself agreeing to a comment that asks, why make Lakewood more chassidish? I guess litvish means normal people following halacha and sensibility, and the new norm is pile up chumras since there is no other choice….who really knows….I honestly prefer my own car, or better yet two cars one for the husband and one for the wife 🙂

  • robbienachman@gmail.com says:

    Men’s and women’s buses alleviates this problem on higher volume routes. On a personal note ; We are supposed to be “shomer mitvahs ” which last time a checked means that we are leaving ourselves an “oyseh” ( to make it a deliberate action . Doing all of these preventive measures is not dealing with the issues. All it does is avoid the problem. Happy homes , good marriages , balanced lives will cure most of these ills.
    The best way to beat the Yetzer Horah ? Asor meRah . . . . Asey Tov ( Neseives Shalom )

  • yoeli says says:

    this is not williamsburg

  • brisker dude says:

    mens and womans busses!! brilliant!!

    now we need someone to sponsor it…. and we should also make an asifa.

  • not like the old days says:

    It became common practice these days for frum woman to dress like supermodlels with wigs that look better than natural hair and the full eye and face makeup when they go outdoors as opposed to when they are home

  • lakewood resident says:

    “It became common practice these days for frum woman to dress like supermodlels with wigs that look better than natural hair and the full eye and face makeup when they go outdoors as opposed to when they are home”
    so there has been some progress made over the years

  • RebRambo says:

    Please note the new traffic pattern in Lakewood: Lexington will be a one way street (west to east) for women only from 9:00 to 1:30. At 1:30, in order to accomadate the yugerleit during bein hasedarim, the traffic will shift from east to west for men only. Between 3:30 and 7:10 Lexington will revert back to the morning traffic pattern and after that back to the bein hasedarim pattern.

    All other major thoroughfares will have traffic cops deciding whether or not one is appropriately dressed and can then use the crosswalk and cars have to stop. Inappropriate attire will subject the individual to risk their life entering the crosswalk as the new law will not be in effect regarding thgem.

  • cohen says:

    #27 & #31

    It was also much more out of town ish

    (#26
    maybe we/they do

  • american says:

    First to address the legal issue , all that you have to do is declare the bus a place a of worship that means even on time davening a week , and if it is a private bus you can have separate seating,

    While i think that these people putting up the signs are a little extreme i have a practical solution, you can make the back of the bus men / front women or vis versa and middle mixed, this way everyone can be accommodated,

  • bb says:

    i wouldn’t mind if they put up a mechitza hanging over the men section, but when men decide that they have a problem with seeing ladies and stick the mechitza right on top of the ladies heads so they cant breath -(they hang it on the bar where the luggage goes) thats a breach in middos.

  • to # 19 says:

    See #19…………THAT IS THE FACTS!!!!!
    Very well written.

  • BUS PASSENGER says:

    to # 27
    what does this have to do with chassidish?
    if its an issue and enough people want to change the current setup, so why not? its deffinetly better.
    so why does everything have to be labeled chasidish, heimish, litvish, yeshivish, or americanish?????

  • anonymous says:

    It is time we realize that sometimes there is no eitza. We live in a time where the nisyonos are crazy and any solution is impracticable. A deeper reason why things are this way is because sins are meant to humble us.
    I have so far never seen a proper understanding or acceptance of the fact that we do sin, and that sin and teshuva is a very natural and unavoidable process. It all boils down to aino yochol locof es yitzro and keeping it private.
    And by the way, all the talking about tznius on this thread is very very untzinus. The yetzer horah has his ways with everyone.

    Bottom line: be normal, keep your issues private, and cry on yom kippur.

  • lakewood says:

    Lakewood right now is not Lakewood its flatbush;boropark;Williamsburg ;monsey;far rockaway;queens ;even Florida when u go into the co-op to buy something u r entering all of the above u have ladies walking around way way above the knees right or wrong it’s just the facts it’s not anymore Lakewood it’s a huge melting pot it is what it is

  • So True says:

    Deep point anon. Everyone spilling over with how they cant handle the tests G-d throws them is untzinus in a weird way as well as border line immature.

    In today’s day and age everyone thinks that everything has a fix. You have an issue? Hello, totally meet a shrink…. Your not feeling well, go to this doc etc etc…

    Its one big mistake. Yes some things are fixable, but many things are just the hand you were dealt. The Gemorah talks about these things how people are born into certain mazalim. In other words, Gd gave you some issues that are not going away. Figure out how to deal with it.

    Deal with life. Your in a sticky matzav? Bust out a sefer and shtieg. Think of a legit yid. He humbly gets on the bus on his way to work, pulls out a sefer or minds his own business, tries to be dan lkaf zchus, and perhaps lets out a krechtz. He does NOT get up and rock the boat. He does NOT wrap shmattas around people. Yes there are times to stand up, but its the guys who are always standing up about issues that have the least to say.

    A guy who loves shalom likes to keep things going smoothly unless he is forced against a wall to act – and then he does. unfortunately, today, its cool to make issues about everything and to try to fix everything. One big mistake.

  • madisonjk says:

    After reading all these comments, I think I will just continue to drive to NY myself. there will be less tzinius problems.
    By the way does one need a mechitza in a car if one does a chessed and gives a woman a lift? is it better not to offer a ride because of tznius problems? any advice from the panel?? how can one drive a car an offer a lift as a true chessed and not be subject to the concerns of above?
    maybe I should stop and not go to NY anymore. then who would do the Chessed an offer rides to women? Maybe only a woman should offer rides to women. Maybe women should also stay at home in Lakewood and not travel anymore.
    Then why do we need a bus?
    Let everybody stay in Lakewood and not travel!!
    That will eliminate all problems.
    I am confused
    can someone help with Daas torah??!!
    Thank you

  • leshem shomayimnik says:

    First of all, celphone use on the bus should be banned!!!!

    Any way, I think that the men should get on in the front and the women from the back door.
    Also anyone that has a non kosher cellphone or is not dressed tzniusdig enough or someone that is not carefull about their loshon hora, should not be allowed on the bus, in order not to be machshil others.
    tefillas hederech signs should be posted on every seat.
    for the busses that have minyonim on them, signs for Moidim, yaaleh veyavo, etc. should be made available.
    why is there no tehillim gemach on the busses??!! and maybe some other mussar seforim or cd’s or maybe live drashos or at least hook ups??!! why not?? why?? the busses are causing yiddisher neshamois to stam waste their time doing nothing?

  • A Woman says:

    We need more tsnius awareness asifas for both men and women. If the men realized that their wives were not dressing properly in public maybe they would encourage them to do so. After all a woman should be dressing for her husband not for others. If a man says he wants his wife to dress improperly, then I am sorry to say, he shouldn’t have come to Lakewood. A woman doesn’t have to make a fashion statement when she goes out, she can look neat and put together without flaunting herself with her knees showing, her tight clothes and her makeup, because who is she showing herself off for? other women? other men?

  • Hack-Nisht-In-Kup-Arein says:

    #9
    EVERY PERSON THAT SAYS THAT OBVIOUSLY IS EITHER A WOMAN THAT DOESNT CARE ABOUT TZNIUS OR A MAN THAT JUST LIKES PRITZUS & DOES NOT WANT ANYONE TO CHANGE THEIR PRITZUS WAYS SO THAT HE CAN KEEP LOOKING AT WHAT HE SHOULDNT BE!

    SHAME ON YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Hack-Nisht-In-Kup-Arein says:

    #29
    WRONG! WHEN U COME TO A COMMUNITY U MUST CONFORM TO THE MINHAG HAMOKOM! AND THATS THE WAY ITS BEEN SINCE CHAZAL ITS NOT A NEW RULE!

  • A Woman says:

    Also, any man who wants to learn in any of the Yeshivos in or around Lakewood should only be allowed to do so if his wife dresses according to halacha. Granted, there are many who moved here that have nothing to do with the Yeshiva and therefor the Yeshiva can’t tell them what to do unfortunately, but, our wonderful mosdos for children should not accept their children into school unless the mothers dress properly. I know that this is also a problem, because why should the children be denied a proper frum education. It is a catch 22 situation. They’ll have to open a special “modern” school just for such families.

  • Ms Candy Kane says:

    This is not realistic unless this bus is a specific chartered bus for a specific group time and place . If you pick up the public, no matter who your targeted audience is based on the route, you can’t denied someone entry based on appearance nor gender or force someone to sit in the back of the bus. It may be a private bus but as it offers public accommodations, then you cant discriminate. If a woman is self confident enough to dress as she pleases, she is certainty not going to put up with men trying to suppress her.

  • Dov says:

    #29

    Firstly, no need to get so heated up with the CAPS – this is a reasonable, cool-headed discussion.
    My point is similar to what #48 elaborated on so nicely:
    True, I agree the degradation of tznius values is a serious issue, but there’s also a long-standing tradition of how a yid goes about dealing with such problems – the first being for a person to work on perfecting themselves or finding personal eitzas to minimize the effect these things have on them, before going out and trying to change everyone else. Also, the more one thinks about it and discusses it – even regarding how bad it is or trying to fix it – will itself make one more susceptible to these thoughts – that’s the yetzer hara’s strategy. So I don”t think my advice is so terrible.

  • Dov says:

    #53

    1) The definition of the community isn’t static but dynamic – how do you define community – by neighborhood, street? In some areas of town you would be outnumbered by these ‘outsiders’. If a new sub-community forms which chooses a different standard, what right does one have to oppose that?

    2) I said I agree that these people should conform to the local minhag, but at the same time them not doing so (especially from lack of knowledge) doesn’t make them the same as someone who is going against a clear halacha in shulchan aruch. I know there seems to be gemaras against this, but in truth the modern definition of a halachic community in regards to minhag is very unclear, if not unexistent (R’ Moshe has many famous teshuvos relating to the concept of minhag hamakom). Maybe the first people who introduced change were real ‘ba’alei aveira, but after a certain point it’s no longer possible to say so.

  • hungry says:

    If someone is hungry, he is much more liable to be nichshal in eating maacholos assuros. If he is not hungry, then the smell or sight of these maacholim will not bother him.

  • Bubby says:

    Excuse me, #49. I am a very tznuah Rebbetzin and I say, move to Skver if you don’t like it here!

    Of course women should cover their knees, but maybe a more gentle approach (ko somar levays Yaakov) would work better than a recent asifa that was all fire & brimstone (devorim hakashin kegidin)!

    Meanwhile, the men should work on their issues. For instance, what are you hockers doing on the Internet anyhow????

  • A vu is de seichel says:

    I hope those running this campaign are offering the bus company to pay for the installation of these dividers

  • Dov says:

    #56

    Well said Rebbetzin!

  • Dov says:

    Sorry I meant #59 – I wasn’t trying to commend myself! 🙂

  • Hack-Nisht-In-Kup-Arein says:

    TO #59 Bubby-yes, “REBETZEN” ?? ( Ha! as if u are one, lol)

    Maybe you are a rebetzen in a modern orthodox shul cause if u would be a real rebetzen you wouldnt be saying that!
    I have yet to hear such words from a rebetzen EVER!!

  • Bubby AKA Rebbetzin says:

    Long ago, there was once a family Sheva Brochos at which some kanoim decided to have a mechitzah. (In most Litvishe circles, there would be no need to have mechitzah for family. If you understand that, good. If not, go elsewhere. )

    Anyhow, a choshuva Rebbetzin came in and saw the situation and said, ‘It was things like this that caused the Haskalah!”

    In other words, life needs balance, and if you try to impose too many chumros and restrictions, you may be responsible for the rebellion of those who could handle simple halachic Yiddishkeit, but can’t handle the over-the-top-chumra’ed version htat some people are trying to promote

    “I have yet to hear such words from a rebetzen EVER!!.” – well, it depends what Rebbetzins you know. I guess most of them are not familiar with the Rashi on Ko Somar LeVais Yaakov. Or maybe your rebbetzins don’t learn Chumash inside either.

  • Yid says:

    Perhaps it’s time to make an asifah to ban busses. Look how many nisyonos are being created by busses. Oiy! Look how many neshamos are being destroyed by the busses.

    BAN THE BUSSES!!!