Submitted: Should We Worry About His Bein Adam L’Chaveiro?

My oldest daughter is currently dating a “top” guy who learned in prestigious yeshivos. My daughter wants, first and foremost, a ben Torah, but of course also a boy who will treat her well. She doesn’t want, as she says, a “beheima who knows gemara.” Makes sense to me.

So far, the dates have gone swimmingly well. He comes across as mature, well-balanced, and intelligent, along with a solid personality and spirit for adventure. The boy has treated my daughter like a queen, opening doors for her, asking if there is anything he can do to accommodate her, and just overall being a mentsch. 

On the last date, my daughter had a conversation with him that is threatening to blow up the shidduch. In a casual conversation about where the boy davens and learns, he mentioned in passing that he takes his davening very seriously, so much so that during the height of the coronavirus pandemic, he still secretly met with a small group of friends to not miss a minyan.

This has caused waves of concerns to ripple over my daughter, myself, and my husband. This boy went to a minyan during the absolute height of the pandemic, when every rav and doctor were begging everyone to just stay inside?!?! And he thinks he knows better? We’re not talking about attending a minyan more recently, when concern about the overall severity of the virus lessened. We’re talking about when Hatzalah and Bikur Cholim could barely keep up with the amount of people in and being transported to hospitals, when there was real fear that the death rate was above 5%.

We don’t know what to think. By all accounts, this boy is terrific and a mentsch. But we are truly worried about his bein adam l’chaveiro. Does he simply not care about others? Does he think his avodas hashem comes before others’ lives? If my daughter is having a very difficult day, will he just run out of the house so he can catch mincha? That doesn’t sound like a good husband to me.

I know TLS isn’t exactly a shidduch forum, but I don’t think this is even a question for a shadchan. I want to know what the average, regular person thinks of this. How does it strike the people reading this? Should the shidduch continue?

We don’t know where to turn, so we turn to TLS. Thanks for all you do and please keep this anonymous.

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There are 31 Comments to "Submitted: Should We Worry About His Bein Adam L’Chaveiro?"

  • Eilu Veilu says:

    For your information..
    There were Big Rabbanim and Roshie Yeshivah who attended those Minyanim etc Who had their Bachurim continue learning. Eilu V’Eilu….

  • estelle says:

    (Or ask HIS rav.)
    Not TLS.

  • estelle says:

    To clarify above, there is no question that he was wrong to daven with a minyan when all rabbonim said not to. That’s not debatable. The question is whether that’s a one-time error on his part, or if it’s indicative of his life approach. And you can’t ask total strangers on TLS which one it is because they don’t know him. This is where a rav comes in. Speak to his rav to find out whether he’s like this across the board, or not. And maybe the rav could speak to him. But what are TLS readers going to know better?

  • Jerry Klainberg says:

    He most probably got a psak to allow it.

    I wouldn’t be too concerned.

    Why doesn’t she ask him straight out??

  • BM says:

    I just want to start off saying that he sounds like a great guy. In my humble opinion I dont think a bochur going to a minyan during corona has anything to do with bein adam lechaveiro. A bochur does not have a mind set of a married man with responsibility. Bochurim think logically a married man thinks with a bit more emotion. I personally wouldnt say no to a boy like that for my daughter (even though my husband was against those who went to minyanim) because its a bochurs mindset and it has nothing to do with how they will treat their spouse or kids. (I know this first hand because I have a brother that sounds very similar to this bochur and he is so sensitive when it comes to other people and kids but was pretty stubborn about going to minyanim. They just cant think past things. Like the bochurim that think married men are so lucky because they think every married man comes home to a clean house, a smiling wife, happy clean kids, and a hot dinner on the stove. We all know that not true.)
    So to sum up from what you wrote I would take a guy like that for my daughter even though I dont agree with the minyan thing, because in my humble opinion I dont think these type of things affect a married man’s treatment towards his wife. And in a healthy marriage a man respects his wife and will be open hearing her opinion on different topics such as going to a minyan during corona.
    Hatzlacha in your decision.

  • Dovid says:

    Interesting question.
    You do write that the boy is treating her like a queen keeps on asking her if there is anything he can do for her – “and just overall being a mentsch.”
    Keep in mind that at this young age a lot of boys don’t usually reach such perfection as this boy seems to have reached.
    There may be some extra enthusiasm he may have focused in the wrong areas. This is what life experiences teaches us.
    Not everyone is perfect.
    Both this bachur and your daughter can grow together and perfect the flaws they each have. Open communication during the dating process and then during marriage will help your daughter figure things out.

  • confused says:

    Why don’t you discuss this with a Rebbi or a Rav, it is concerning.
    It is is also concerning that one would follow advice from who knows who meaning you have no clue who is writing these comments, what if you receive 100 one way or the other way entirely, what would you say than?
    This is involves much emotions, and needs to be made with proper intellect.
    I have opinions not to disclose.
    May Hashem give you the proper Siyata DIshmaya.

  • roger says:

    You ask such a question from daas Torah! A highly respected Rav, Rosh Yeshiva, or Rebbe! Certainly not on this forum!!

  • psak says:

    Should I assume that the letter writer is a bored yeshiva bochur? Probably. But just in case… Let’s not blow up a potential shidduch because of your unequivocal understanding of ‘this boy is obviously a careless reckless rotzeich for going to minyan when all the rabbonim and doctors warned not to.’ I will choose my words carefully so TLS accepts this… While yes the Lkwd rabbonim put out a letter emphatically stating that davening with a minyan is tatamount to be a rotzeich. And yes doctors were demanding people to stay inside and not go to minyan. However there were plenty of rabbonim incl froim the chashuve Lkwd that told people privately that it is fine to daven with a minyan if certain conditions were kept to. Rumor even had it that some of these rabbonim themselves davened with a minyan. So , you ask where is this bochurs bein adam lchaveiro. The answer is simple: There was a lot of confusion and fear and an obvious yet quiet machlokes amongst the rabbonim. He went according to the rabbonim that allowed minyanim. He said it was with his friends. Assuming they are all young and social distanced he followed these rabbonim’s guidelines to the tea being a true ben torah and a great baal middos!
    Let us know when they get engaged. I’d like some shadchanus:)

  • Bewildered says:

    Why are you turning to the Lakewood Scoop instead of a Rav?

  • Hadracha says:

    This is a very sensitive issue and should directed to a senior Rav who understands Shalom Bayis very well.
    I would direct you to ask this very sensitive and important question to Rav Shmuel Blech Shlita.

    It can NOT be decided by popular opinion on this forum.

  • Hhh says:

    many Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva advised people to keep going to minyan through the lockdown. They weren’t swayed by the threats from doctors (who knew little as it turned out).

  • AG says:

    Lets hope this Bachur doesn’t look at TLS, because you may have just lost your chance with an almost perfect bachur

  • HK says:

    My husband is a caring and wonderful husband and father and he too did not miss a single minyan. It has been a serious mitzvah of his since we were dating and I respect him for it. He asked numerous Rabbanim and was given the ok. His minyan was safer than many after they were being allowed. They took it seriously – outside and distanced. He was more afraid to go into stores for food shopping. We were called many names by neighbors (including the ones who still had their cleaning ladies) when I asked why they had them they said it was pikuach nefesh. Well it was pikuach nefesh for my husband to go to minyan. I think this shows this bochur’s priorities and I would snap him up in an instant.
    We should follow our rabbonim but also understand that people followed theirs.
    You ask about bein adam l’chaveiro?
    This mess has caused so much more sinas chinum- we all felt this pesach was the time – did we mess it up? Something to think about before calling ANYONE a rotzeach.

  • Anonymous says:

    I personally know many Rabonim that quietly allowed & davened with a minyan throughout.

    The only question you should have is if he asked HIS rov & if HIS rov allowed it.

  • Dudi says:

    I have greater concerns for this bochur than for your daughter! #enoughsaid

  • Daas Torah says:

    I dont bleive sum1 really sent this into tls in order 2 see wat people think and 2 make the decision based on that. But even if this is just a ? 2 ponder or tls is trolling their readers, here’s my reply.

    Do u have a rav or do u just decide things on ur own and when in doubt, reach out 4 public opinion 2 shape ur decisions.
    Mayb this is not a ? 4 a shadchan but did u consider asking ur rav instead of relying on sum random 20yr old bachurs opinion on tls?
    If u dont hav a rav, then the boy has alot more 2 worry about u than the other way around and I want 2 see his reaction when ur daughter tells him that fact.
    Did she ask him if he asked his daas torah, and if he did and always follows it thoroghly then thats the best thing in the world.
    Even if he did it on his own, I would sign up for this to be his worst aveira, to daven in a minyan when it’s “assur” to.
    If you are concerned that he thinks his davening is better than others b/c hes more frum, then WELCOME TO LAKEWOOD!!!

  • Hello? says:

    To The Bochur Who is dating this girl that doesn’t want a “Beheima that learns Gemara”:
    What a compliment to you to be above a Beheima that learns Gemara. There is a wide range between a Beheima that learns Gemarah & A Bochir who is exemplary in his Bein Adom Lemakom as well as his bein Adam Lebrios.
    If you passed all of this potential “shvigers” criteria & the only problem that should blow this up, is a decision you made about a minyan at an unprecedented time where everyone was struggling with how to cope. Each according to their own Madraiga.

    R’ Bochur” be sure to ask Das Torah before you continue with this “Shviger” that decided you should not rush out to Mincha if her “Princess” is having a hard day. That is the last thing you want to do.

    As for the Eim Habayis of this family that are perfect in their Bein Adom L’Chaveiro. I am more than a bit concerned about the Bein Adom Lamokom of this bunch ( or maybe it’s just her) either way. What upstanding Mishpacha turns to a forum on line when they have a major Shaila in a Shidduch??? A bit vain ,don’t you think? Where is the Das Torah, Whos their Rov? I can think of many places to turn to for advice, But “The Lakewood Scoop?? Ay yay yei!!

  • lkwdresident says:

    Break it off now. Later in life, no matter how small an issue, you’ll always “confirm” your hunch. He has no chance, and will only lead to later issues.
    Also, you should consult with a therapist and rav, as your narrow meddling in your kids future life is dangerous. If you continue this, you will have grandkids that don’t talk to you.

  • Dave says:

    Firstly, like others have said, I believe he should have asked his Rov & followed the psak. If he didnt ask / doesnt have a Rov, then thats a bigger issue. But he was not alone, there were at least 9 other davening with him, (very possibly all socially distanced) and I’m sure this was not the only minyan around. I would much prefer to know if he and this minyan completely refrain from talking during davening; not looking at cellphones in the BM and actually had proper kavona then and now for all tefillos.
    Secondly, as he obviously takes davening and minyan seriously, it is clear that if he had a family now, he would also leave them to go daven with a minyan – even during supper & bed routine. If this is not something that the girl could handle, then maybe he is not right for her.

  • perturbed says:

    It ‘s disturbing to call anyone a Beheima that learns gemara. Where does such ugly language come from??????

  • Brooklyn interloper says:

    This topic and it’s particular nature should not be decimated in The Lakewood Scoop. A rov must/should be consulted.

  • Brooklyn interloper says:

    I meant to say disseminated.

  • Brooklyn interloper says:

    I meant to write disseminated instead of decimated.

  • pumped! says:

    Btw I haven’t missed a minyan since covid started!

  • Yudi says:

    I think it’s a total lack of character to post this all over the internet good luck to u if the boy finds out I’m sure he will drop the shidduch it’s disgusting to mix everyone besides he doesn’t want in-laws that every tIme you might have issue u will post and take a poll of everyone opinion
    Don’t you think he is entitled to privacy besides you if finds out you r Malbin pney chavero berabim

  • Uncommon sense says:

    As many others have said, ask your Rov. Or his.

    My thoughts- Young men tend to fight for their beliefs more than when they have a family and good job at risk. He will likely settle as well. Perhaps he told her thinking she would be proud to trust Hashem over the law.

    While I understand your daughter’s concern, this is something she should discuss with him. She has a right to ask him if he will put minyan over her needs. And you should encourage her to discuss it with him (not you) and then quietly support her. You don’t want to start off her marriage being resented for advice, no matter how much she needs/ wants it.

  • ASK! says:

    I never write in to these things BUT I will now!

    I hope you read this. FIND OUT if he does what he thinks is right or does he ask da’as torah, real da’as torah. You don’t want her marrying one of those people who do what they think is right on everyone else’s cheshbon. Not pleasant to be married to one of those.
    The only person who I know of who went to minyanim when you weren’t supposed to was this individual and his wife is miserable. He does what he thinks is right and it is torture living with him because he never asks da’as torah and if he actually does, he asks someone who he knows will give him the answer he wants.

    Either it was something wrong he did (and we all make mistakes) OR it is a snapshot of how he will be married. Do your research. The first is fine, the second is NOT!
    Speak to your rav and make sure that you’re not marrying one of those otherwise your daughter will be miserable!

  • Chaim. says:

    Just be careful. For all you know, he is now psoting on some other website the fact that you posted this, and taking votes on weather HE should break it.